An Actor and a Psychotherapist Walk into a Sandbox
What happens when an actor and a psychotherapist explore storytelling and psychology in real time? A raw, unscripted exchange on conflict, mindset, and the stories we tell ourselves.
A conversation written in real time. This was the premise of our experiment—35 minutes, a blank Google Doc, and an open-ended exchange about storytelling, psychology, and the way we make sense of our lives. Without a predetermined topic, we followed curiosity wherever it led: from how people “tick” to the stories we tell ourselves, from conflict as the engine of narrative to the importance of staying present. What emerged was a creative sandbox—part dialogue, part discovery—where two different disciplines found surprising common ground.
To differentiate between speakers, Louise’s dialogue is in italics, while her guest, Jason Brooker is in regular text.
Is now a good time for you?
Yes
This feels already quite interesting, and unique.
Well it’s new to me.
I thought we could collaborate on a post together, and the only way that I know how to co-write in real time is via Google Docs. Hence the meeting here in a Google Doc ha!
It’s a great idea. Just hope I can find something interesting to say 🙂 Have you started the timer yet???
No - sorry one sec. Be right back.
No worries. Just let me know when we have officially started.
Thanks for being so patient and understanding. I just want to ensure that when we start we don’t have any interruptions… Phone is on airplane mode. (God, I love that setting). It also crossed my mind too about the needing to be “interesting” point that you flagged.
I didn’t know if there was something in particular that you wanted us to discuss. It was why I pointed you towards my post yesterday (on the meaning of art and therapy).
The idea was simple. I thought in seeing this as a sort of experiment. I don’t know what will be the outcome of this 35 minutes together but I’m curious.
So the idea, is that we set the timer and have a written conversation around whatever we decide to talk about and perhaps, we might be able to draw some links in our process.
OK . Then let’s just go for it
35 minute timer set.
I think we should go back to what you said before, about being interesting - or feeling the need to be interesting.
Yes, I guess it is subjective. I just know what i would like to read or not read. So when I am writing I will always be questioning if it seems interesting to me.
What are the things that define what you do like to read?
Well I am always wanting to expand my understanding of how people ‘tick’ How people’s mind’s work.
When you say “how people ‘tick’” - what is your definition of tick? Just so I’m clear.
The way people’s actions are related to their beliefs about themselves and the world around them. Why do they behave the way they do?
Ah, ha. So tick in the sense of a wind-up toy sort of thing - as opposed to energises them, or “floats their boat”.
I think it is all the same thing. When you wind up a toy or a clock then you are creating energy - the result of course is fairly predictable if it is a toy or a clock - but with a human being the winding up can produce all sorts of results.
In this context, what are examples of things that can wind people up. Are you talking about challenges and struggle?
Well not necessarily. I think the term ‘wind up’ here has other connotations. I was merely referring to the energy that is created by any event and how different individuals will behave based on their own experience of life. This is what interests me
Me too. 25:12 minutes by the way. Within 10 minutes we managed to get to the core of one of the areas in which our respective vocations (I’m sure there’s a better word) overlap. An actor and storyteller, we know that all good stories come with conflict and revelations around what makes our character’s tick - and more importantly, how their character decides to deal with it (or not).
Yes. The story is everything.
I was recently in a class with a well known author on story called John Yorke. (He has a book called Into the Woods, which I think is what raised his profile - to be fact checked with more time). He crystalised story in a couple of ways that I really enjoyed; story is thesis, antithesis and synthesis. The other was that ultimately story is about being able to communicate. Story is how humans process and share information.
(Notes taken by Louise in John Yorke’s class below)
Absolutely. I guess I come at it from a different angle. I am usually listening to my client telling me about events in their life. It is a story. They are making meaning out of what has happened to them, But my interest is not in the story itself but how they are telling it. This tells me what meaning they have made out of these events,
Firstly, wow - I find your perspective intriguing. Is that because the story we tell about ourselves is the story that our inner life is creating? This sounds quite obvious as I’m reading it back. I’m thinking about the question I’m really wanting to ask.
Let me help you if I can. The inner life of the client might not always be that clear to them. But the event itself is not the key. It is how they view it that tells me so much about them. Two people can experience the same thing and have a very different view of it.
Is there such a thing as a perfect mindset?
Not sure what you mean?
If it’s how people digest experiences and the stories they tell themselves, then doesn’t that suggest that mindset plays a huge role in our lives and experience? 13:19 mins.
Yes, of course. But there certainly isn’t a perfect anything. Most of what we tell ourselves can only be based on our own (limited) experiences.
Completely agree. It was sort of a deliberately challenging question in that sense - but love what that led to you sharing.
I often tell clients (especially children) to remember this phrase “Just because I think something, doesn’t mean it’s true” It is like a mantra. We all get too caught up in thinking.
Thinking from a writer’s perspective, and as an actor who has improvised, it’s very interesting to consider character’s dialogue and how their inner mindset may affect what they do (or don’t) say - and how they express themselves. Have you noticed any patterns?
Well I think anxiety plays a big part. If a person is very anxious it means their mind is essentially ‘in the future’ worrying about what might happen. This can very often prevent people from saying or doing what they really want to.
Uf, yes - I am familiar with anxiety. I have also found that the cousin of anxiety, depression can come from thinking/worrying/regretting the past. Essentially two states that remove us from being here now. 5:06 remaining
Exactly that. Trying to help people to stay present is really what most of my work is about. If I had to sum it up.
I would say that being - and remaining - present is top of my job description. It’s where my emotions, and the connection to my scene partners and relationships lie.
Yes. I can see that. For me, being in the room with the client is exactly that. The client may not always be ‘present’ but it is essential that I can remain so
What impact have you found being present has on your clients?
Gosh! Not sure I can answer that succinctly. But i know that if I don’t stay focused I am likely to cause more destabilisation for them. I am the anchor, if you like,
I can see that. That’s time by the way. Are you happy to continue?
Sure. 🙂Although Isn’t that cheating???
Well, no because although the 35 minutes timer is a brilliant device for getting this creative time started - I don’t ever want to limit my creative process. In fact, I always want MORE motivation. So actually, it’s just a great sign that we’re in flow (if we’re not ready to put a full stop on it, just yet).
Yeah. I agree. The idea of being present with a client needs more explanation. I just knew we were coming to an end so I didn;t go further. The anchor is a really good metaphor for me. Because many of my clients are very much thrown about by their emotions and their situations so if I can be a source of stability then I am ‘doing my job’. If that makes sense
Certainly does. If on the contrary your client the individual controlled their emotions and didn’t know how to express them, would you still feel like an anchor?
That’s a really good question. I guess I have been doing this long enough to know when a client might be ‘controlling their emotions. It may even be that they just don’t know how to express themselves. But yes, I am still the anchor, because beneath the surface the emotions are still there.
This is interesting conversational territory.
Could you delve a little deeper into that area? Of how you’d help someone who was controlling their emotions / not knowing how to express their emotions?
Well, as you know, I work a lot with teenagers. It is very common that they may not have the language to express how they are feeling. Or just be overwhelmed with feelings that they feel they have no control over. So we might find creative ways to address that. Like sand tray work. Or art.
When you say ‘sand tray work’ - what does this involve?
Literally a tray of sand and a large array of figures for them to choose from. I often say it is like painting a picture for people who have no artistic talent. You create a 3d picture in the sand using whatever you want. Telling a story
Do you have props for them to choose?
Yes. Loads. Figures of animals, people etc as well as buildings vehicles trees etc
Have you created work in the sand for yourself?
I have, yes.
Would you mind if I asked you what it revealed for you?
I’m afraid the answer won’t be that interesting. I don’t really interpret my client’s work. I ask then to tell me what it means. Which equally means I can’t interpret my own. If I am honest I can’t even remember the last time i did it, what I even did.
Creating in the sand box for me feels like creating stories with our films, and acting and creating characters in a way feels like creating the client - although that feels very inception. I noticed in the last few years that my interest / angle in stories are often coming from a particular perspective.
Could you say more about that?
I could go in two directions with my answer, either as an actor or as a filmmaker/storyteller/writer. Which are you most interesting in hearing about for now?
Story teller
Okay, well. What I’m learning as a storyteller is that we are designing our own sand box. We get to decide the props, the characters, the landscape, the style and vision of what we will be playing with. But this alone, doesn’t create a story. Story from what I’ve learned, is really about conflict. The props and characters within the sandbox living in their world without conflict, is what John Yorke would describe as the thesis - the world before the problem, the world before the conflict. In order for it to become a story, our characters must be faced with a challenge or struggle. Recently I heard it described as when “your character’s wants clash with your character’s needs”. I’m still digesting that but I think there’s some clues in there. How your character responds to the struggle - and how they overcome it -is what becomes the story.
That is really interesting. The ‘wants’ and the ‘needs’ I think from a philosophical and psychological point of view this really sums up life and what it means to ‘have’ or tell a story. All stories are made up by the protagonist even if they don;t realise it. Therefore all conflict is also created by them. There is no conflict until you create it.
There’s also no conflict if our character doesn’t want anything. Which is why the first stage of my character development process is understanding what my characters wants and needs. What they think they want and what they need will often, if not always, be different.
I suppose I think of it slightly differently. From the perspective of what causes suffering and how this leads to conflict, it is when we wish for things to be different to how they actually are. This might sound really obvious but in a situation where a couple are fighting (I do a lot of couples work) the fight is really very simple. Each of them, as individuals, is not behaving as the other wants them to. The conflict is created by them wanting things to be different from how they actually are.
You’re touching upon the various types of conflict that we’d describe in writing, acting, storytelling terms as inner conflict (the conflict faced internally with want/need), and interpersonal conflicts, which you articulated perfectly. There’s also external conflict (where the sand pit might start getting in the way of the characters!). I really like Mo Gawdat's happiness equation, "happiness is equal to or greater than your perception of life minus your expectations". Have you come across this before?
No, but I agree with the sentiment. However I would say that from a storytelling point of view you make the distinction between different types of conflict. However, from my point of view they are all the same. All conflict is inner. Even if the experience is something outside of yourself the conflict is still whether or not you choose to accept it.
This has been such a beautiful experience. I put that statement that you shared about in bold as I think it’s so poignant and relevant. I’m glad we did this. Thank you for your presence and patience and considerate insights.
Thank you too for suggesting it.
I definitely feel there’s so much more to unpack, if you’re up for it, we can dive back in and see where the next 35 minutes take us. I also am grateful for this opportunity to discover another somewhat creative way of connecting with people. I can imagine that introverts may prefer to discuss topics of interest with us in this way too.
Yes. Happy to do it again sometime.
For sure. How has this been for you?
Really good. I love being ‘forced’ to think on the spot.
I hope I didn’t come across forceful. Sorry if I did in any way!
No. Not at all. I just meant that when I normally write I can go back and change it as often as I like. I enjoy this because it is spontaneous
That’s what I also enjoyed. When you asked me to elaborate on storytelling, it really encouraged me to think and discern my thoughts. There was also something interesting about you seeing my thoughts on the page as I write them. It takes a little bit of courage I’d say, to follow through on your train of thought - even if you don’t exactly know where it’s headed. That’s like the thrill of improv. And I suppose creating in general. We created space to create and I’m glad that we did. Until next time?
See the creative artefact for yourself here.
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